A transcript is under, click on “Broaden” to learn:

Amanpour & Co.

February 2, 2023

1:30:40 a.m. Jap Time

AMANPOUR: Tyre Nichols is laid to relaxation towards a backdrop of nationwide unrest. I communicate with Jelani Cobb, dean of Columbia College’s Journalism College and one among America’s foremost writers on race and politics….

….Welcome to this system everybody. I am Christiane Amanpour in London.

There are grey skies in Memphis right this moment as household and mourners come collectively to recollect Tyre Nichols, the 29-year-old whose dying by the hands of police sparked renewed protest towards this brutality all throughout the US. Nationwide figures, together with Vice President Kamala Harris, are gathering along with George Floyd’s brother, Philonise, and Tamika Palmer, mom of Breonna Taylor, victims of the police. Reverend Al Sharpton, who’s delivering the eulogy for Tyree Nichols, is looking for justice.

REVEREND AL SHARPTON, FOUNDER, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: We’re going to proceed to battle this battle round police brutality and killing. Till we get federal legal guidelines modified. What occurred to Tyre is a shame to this nation. There is no such thing as a different method to describe what has occurred on this scenario.

AMANPOUR: As for makes an attempt to vary that federal legislation, this is how “The Washington Put up describes the political scenario. Police reform talks are again in Congress, however with the hope for a deal. Jelani Cobb is dean of Columbia College’s Journalism College and he’s a veteran observer of steps and missteps in the direction of that objective.

Welcome again to this system Jelani Cobb. I need to ask you as a result of it’s simply so tragically, , repetitive. What strikes you about this specific incident and do you assume it might lastly be a catalyst for actual change?

JELANI COBB, DEAN, COLUMBIA JOURNALISM SCHOOL: I imply, hope spring’s everlasting. However the reality is that it’s important to be very silver minded about this. That there have been pushes for reform earlier than, most notably the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act which went additional than any of the prior makes an attempt that occurred. However nonetheless it was stalled by the efforts of police unions to actually cease that laws from being handed. And so, it is attainable however there’s additionally a really tough highway forward. Now, if you happen to ask the query of what’s completely different, one of many central issues right here is that that is the primary time that individuals have seen a video, once more, to the sort of video that we noticed with George Floyd’s dying and the aftermath of the defeat of that laws. And so, it is extremely clear, that there’s a relationship between the video that we noticed in Could 2020 and the video that we are actually seeing once more in January 2023.

AMANPOUR: Which is almost three years on. Actually, the necessities have not modified. And what I need to ask you to clarify for our worldwide viewers and perhaps many throughout the US as effectively, , there may be all the time a lot dialogue in regards to the systemic racism that persists in the US. And but, the perpetrators of this dying have been 5 black law enforcement officials. So, individuals say, oh, effectively then clearly it isn’t about racism.

COBB: Sure, that is not essentially true. Now, , it is tough to make definitive categorizations of what somebody’s thoughts standing. However , there’s all the time been within the lengthy custom of individuals making critiques of racism, there’s all the time been a recognition that racism shouldn’t be solely pervade by white individuals or white supremacy. It is not solely pervaded by white individuals. That there are black individuals who have been uncovered to those sorts of concepts and undertake the identical kind of mindset on account of them. There are a lot of attainable dynamics at play right here. , the tradition of the division, the psychology of the person officers, the group dynamics of the 5 individuals who have been abusing him, and an entire array of different issues. However the truth that they’re all black individuals concerned doesn’t, in and of itself, imply that there isn’t any attainable beam of racism accelerating what we noticed occur.

AMANPOUR: Let’s simply take that one step additional and speak in regards to the institutional training and expertise. So, I’ve seen your writing and I’ve heard others within the aftermath of this killing, this dying. Discuss how these law enforcement officials or any law enforcement officials, even black law enforcement officials are, as you say, introduced up in that system that has been created largely by the white institution, proper? And that it goes all the way in which again to bounty hunters, , discovering escape slaves and the like. Inform me just a little bit in regards to the historical past so that individuals can perceive why it’s so pernicious and never simply. as you say, for white, white supremacists.

COBB: Sure, I imply — , just like the system of slavery was, in lots of situations, administered by black overseers. , that was not an unusual dynamic in the US. , simply as in lots of situations, colonialism was administered by the individuals of the identical background of who’re being colonized. It is not unattainable for a system to each have illustration of people who find themselves being exploited and used these individuals to additional the exploitation, , specific communities. And so, , if we have been simply doing a fast survey of this, , Martin Luther King talked in regards to the pernicious results of internalized racism. W. E. B. Du Bois, the good scholar, talked about it within the Brown versus Board of Training case which outlawed segregation. The psychologists pointed to the sort of self-hating dynamic that racism and white supremacy tended to instill on the minds of people that have been subjected to it. So, it is a very lengthy historical past right here. And it is unattainable to know what occurred to Tyre Nichols with out taking all of that into consideration.

AMANPOUR: So now, let’s go ahead and see how this will, perhaps, be shifted. Some have, within the aftermath of his dying, his killing, praised the Memphis Metropolis Police and officers for taking swift motion within the case. Initially, I’m wondering if you happen to agree, however first let me simply play what a Memphis pastor, Earle Fisher mentioned on this program earlier this week.

EARLE J. FISHER, MEMPHIS PASTOR: I imply, an excessive amount of in my estimation, benevolence given to town and the police division for this “Speedy response”. That is the byproduct of aggressive and fierce organizing on the bottom for the final a number of years. And these two entities, the mayor’s workplace and the police division are those who carried out the SCORPION Unit within the first place. It is virtually like beginning a hearth after which getting credit score for attempting to place it out.

AMANPOUR: So, SCORPION was a police unit that was assigned to excessive crime hotspots. It has been disbanded within the aftermath. However — so, given what the pastor mentioned in regards to the neighborhood and about how these items are created, how do you assume this may be damaged down?

COBB: So — I imply, I believe there are some things. One, the speedy response is ultimately a response to the strain that has been positioned on these establishments by neighborhood activists, I believe is totally true. I additionally assume that it is a sort of bureaucratic self-defense mode that individuals acknowledge that the problem — and significantly the problem round whenever you see explosive conditions like George Floyd’s dying. The dragging your ft about firing somebody, the dragging their ft about bringing expenses. That lag time is the place tensions are inclined to escalate. And so, in some methods they’ve simply mastered the protocols of methods to deal with a scenario within the aftermath of outrageous conduct by police. However the actual mark of progress is exhibiting the flexibility to curtail that outrageous conduct by police within the first place. And so, it is paradoxical that there’s this speedy response and we nonetheless see the issue — the underlying downside persevering with.

AMANPOUR: So, attempting to get the precise steadiness, clearly, is a never- ending endeavor it appears by way of police, , dealing with precise crime and means over doing it in these circumstances.

COBB: Positive.

AMANPOUR: So, we have spoken earlier than about your expiration investigation on this. Your frontline documentary on police, significantly the division in

New Jersey. Here’s what James Stewart, he was the pinnacle of New York’s largest police union informed you in regards to the concept of reform.

JAMES STEWART, JR., PRESIDENT, NJ FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE LODGE #12: The police aren’t going on the market simply in search of violent encounters or trying to, , bodily impose their will on individuals. What does a cop need? We need to come to work, do our job, and go house. We wish a constructive interplay with the neighborhood. However, , all people is piling on. All people is towards you. There’s protest or rallies all the time, anti-police this, anti-police that.

AMANPOUR: So, , portraying himself and themselves because the victims, I assume, is what I hear from that. So, what did you be taught most from that documentary on whether or not there was any willingness to search for significant and lasting reform?

COBB: Properly, I imply, there was. And fairly frankly with that documentary, we had two documentaries. One was a documentary that we created from the footage after which was a documentary that we might’ve created from the issues that individuals mentioned to us off digicam. So, plenty of police would say, off digicam that’s, that they knew that the conduct that they have been exhibiting exacerbated the issues with the neighborhood, or plenty of police, definitely not all of them however plenty of them would say, they’d seen their fellow officers go over the road. Do issues that created lasting animosity and hostility within the communities. And most importantly, they thought that that sort of animosity made it harder for them to truly do their job, which was to unravel and forestall crime. And once we — one of the vital vital issues that we took away from that documentary, we truly did two movies in Newark that have been three years aside, I consider. The second time we went, they would want actually important strides by doing issues — it wasn’t the get robust, militarized or police give them excessive powered weapons. Essentially the most affecting factor that they did in Newark, was that they really started partnering with communities.

AMANPOUR: Uh-huh.

COBB: They started utilizing community-based violence prevention packages. They started saying that perhaps the reply to all the things shouldn’t be, , police use of drive. And shockingly, crime numbers truly went down. And so, I believe that there are issues which are attainable. It is a query about whether or not or not now we have the desire to enact these sorts of options on a much bigger scale.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you about all of this goes on to training, proper? I imply, children and other people must be educated if you are going to have these neighborhood interactions and if you are going to have change. You have written, as effectively this week — or fairly the final month about Governor Ron DeSantis blocking the inclusion of a brand new trigger for highschool college students in his state on African American research. He mentioned it imposes a political agenda within the faculties. And he is what he mentioned about “WOKE tradition” final November when he received re-election as governor.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We battle the WOKE within the legislature, we battle the WOKE within the faculties, we battle the WOKE within the companies. We’ll by no means ever give up to the WOKE mob. Florida is the place WOKE goes to die.

AMANPOUR: Jelani, I need to ask you this in context with additionally journalism, since you’re additionally a journalist, head of the journalism division college there at Columbia, and you have got the duPont awards arising, the Pulitzers of broadcast journalism and movie. So, within the context of what we simply heard, and what’s going on, how do you assume mainstream journalists must be, , reacting in these circumstances. To politicians who throw purple meat round and to the precise reporting of those race circumstances?

COBB: — I imply, I believe that one of many issues that’s actually, , vital, in the event that they’re such a factor as a silver lining right here, is that I do assume the protection of those tales has turn into extra refined. That persons are typically extra vital of the way in which by which, , conditions like this are coated. , one of many issues that we emphasize definitely in instructing the journalist at Columbia is that the truth that, , you’ve entry to official statements and official paperwork from police departments, does not imply that that makes the assertion true. However it’s important to go round and truly, , report what’s lacking.

For those who discover the good variants between what we heard or noticed within the police report in Memphis and what we truly noticed on that video. And so, that is what reporting is meant to do. That’s what good reporting a presupposed to do. And in that regard, we’re thrilled, as all the time, the host the duPont Awards. , it’s the premiere award for journalism that is executed within the broadcast and digital realms. And that is what we do annually. We maintain up the banner of excellence and get to acknowledge, , by way of our efforts and thru the efforts of their pears work that actually units the bar for actual journalism and the place it must be headed.

AMANPOUR: Jelani Cobb, thanks a lot certainly. Thanks quite a bit.